positioned to love

bomobob(a fellow etsy seller)

"You and I cannot demonstrate love or joy or peace or patience or kindness sitting all by ourselves on an island. No, we demonstrate it when the people we have committed to loving give us good reasons not to love them, but we do it anyway."

~ Mark Dever, "What Is A Healthy Church"

He goes on to suggest that if your goal is to love all Christians, then commit yourself to a concrete group of Christians (church) with all their failures and weaknesses. Stick with them through thick and thin for 80 years and then evaluate how successful you were at loving all Christians.

Sounds like marriage, but then I think that's how it should be viewed.

it's confirmed, i'm a wishful dreamer!

life is but a dream(by a fellow etsy seller)

Not so long ago, I gained a step-dad in Lawrence at the age of 40, and I'm thrilled my mom has him in her life. I've been enjoying his recent comments. He has a way of challenging my thinking that is thought provoking. I love that because it's a rare gift. It's what I need and pray for.

Here's something interesting he said yesterday in the comments:

"What you are hinting at requires a genuine heart desire filled with love and laying everything else aside. This requires a cost and i'm not sure that there are those who really want to move with God that strongly, because of the work and effort it would take to make a change. The buzz words being mindsets and paradigms."

Ah, the path of least resistance! Though I'll never resign myself to the status quo, I guess this confirms once again that I have and always will be a dreamer. :-)

This girl will continue to believe that Jesus' way will always be cutting edge, radical, and new. Although God is not confined by the 66 books of the Bible, I'll also continue to believe that the principles laid out in the NT for having a healthy community are timeless.

In the end, my heart cry is not for something new (we already have that), but for healthy maturing Christian community where we reflect the nature and the heart of Jesus, in spite of ourselves.

church leadership ~ grass roots style / the original way

border collie pup and lamb
or
a sheep dog puppy and one of the fold
(This photo reminded me of a dream I had recently
where our mutt of a terri-poo turned into a beautiful border collie. I wish!)
Lately I've been very intrigued with discovering the Biblical way to "do" church. Why? I really don't know exactly. Part of me wonders if the typical way it's done is the way that's best.

I always thought a church needs a good strong leader (singular), but what I'm beginning to think is that it needs good strong leaders (plural), who uplift, carry, challenge, and protect each other and the community, with the community reciprocating the same.

In no way am I diminishing the role of the teachers! Perhaps that's why the Bible singles them and other extra hard working elders out as being "worthy of double honour". I'm willing to bet it takes a lot of meditating, studying, and praying to teach the Word to the people, especially if your heart's cry is to teach in tune with God, conveying what He wants to convey.

“Let the elders who rule well be considered worthy of double honor, [meaning compensate them monetarily], especially those who work hard at preaching and teaching.” ~ 1 Timothy 5:17 (NASB)

Through Google Book Search, I found a book called "Discourse on the Official Relations of New Testament Elders”, written by John M. Duncan, a Presbyterian pastor. The book was published in 1826. Originally, it was a discourse delivered to his community as a "service preparatory to the ordination of four elders, who were, there and then, ordained according to the principles therein exhibited." It was expanded and revised for the public at the request of the elders of that church.

His view of church leadership was based on scripture, where the New Testament churches were taken care of by overseers, or elders. I haven't found anywhere where it says local communities were led be one pastor/shepherd. It seems downright irrational and unfair to expect pastors to be all things to all people.

Paul and Barnabas appointed elders [plural] for them in each church and, with prayer and fasting, committed them to the Lord, in whom they had put their trust. ~ Acts 14:23 (NIV)

Here's what Duncan had to say:

God has not created offices in his house to afford to one man an opportunity to grow more important than another man; but to furnish every one with an occasion of doing all the good he can: and each minister, instead of growing supercilious because of his official distinction, might say with Moses, "would God that all the Lord's people were prophets, and that the Lord would put his spirit upon them."

Now, you know that congregations ask their preachers to do a very great deal. They must preach twice or thrice on the sabbath, and, perhaps, two or three times in the week; they must visit the sick; bury the dead; .....and submit to every intrusion which the public at large shall conclude their supposed influence may warrant. Can human beings accomplish all this? Are flesh and blood equal to the task? Must not the preacher neglect the pulpit in order to answer these various calls?

Under all these views, it appears to me, that, while the preacher is taken from among the elders to expound the scriptures and conduct the public services of the sanctuary, they in their places are called to discharge whatever belongs to parochial visitation.

But here it may be necessary for me to state, that I am not seeking a retreat for myself, nor expressing any intention to decline my usual parochial services.....Yet whatever I may do, or may not do, your elders are called upon, by the Word of God, to exhort, to comfort, to reprove, to warn, to pray, among you, as opportunities may occur, or your situation may demand.

These are not "support roles". Overseer's jobs are to shepherd the flock, just as the preacher/teacher. No one is meant to bear the burden alone. All elders are called to feed, care for, and protect the flock.

Paul, in his exhortation to the elders of Ephesus, addresses, not a single elder, but a number. And he admonishes them as having a spiritual charge entrusted to them in common....Peter, in like manner, addresses, not an elder, but the elders [not only that but refers to himself as a fellow elder]; and he requires them to feed the flock of God, and cheerfully to take the oversight thereof.....Feeding the flock of God calls for much more than mere sanctuary services; and oversight is much more than mere preaching. Terms like these express full provision for the spiritual necessities of the church, that she may be edified, enlarged, sustained, refreshed. They include all that belongs to exhortation, prayer, watchfulness, consolation, warning, reproof, rule, &c. The elders must do all this, each one labouring in his own place, and according to his own ability; or, as the scriptures speak, some elders must preside well, and others must labour in word and doctrine. All are not intended to do the same thing, but a plurality exists to meet various wants.

Duncan, in referring to the elders being ordained in his church, says this about them:

They consider themselves to be invested with spiritual functions, and called to render spiritual services. They may exhort you to duty; they may comfort you by unfolding the merits of our beloved Redeemer, and the precious promises of our covenant God; they may warn you of the fearful consequences of sin; they may pray with and for you; they may sustain a spiritual parentage to your children;—in a thousand ways they may be helpers of your joy, and companions in your sorrows. And all this may be done from the purest, the kindest, and the most magnanimous motives, and with an assiduity which cannot fail to be a blessing.

Wow. Now, this is what he says to the church:

Now then, brethren, your duty is to "know them which labour among you, and are over you in the Lord, and admonish you, and to esteem them very highly in love for their work's sake." And again, I say, "obey them that have the rule over you, and submit yourselves; for they Watch for your souls, as they that must give account: that they may do it with joy, and not with grief; for that is unprofitable for you." It will be yours to receive them affectionately when they call upon you; to send for them when you are sick; to ask counsel of them when you need it; to converse freely with them of things divine; to listen in patience and love to their brotherly admonition; to bear them habitually on your hearts to the mercy-seat; and to afford them every facility in the discharge of their duties. What a glorious spiritual alliance is here! What a mingling of christian hearts! How well adapted the opportunity to a fine display of the social attributes of moral character! What tender sympathies, most happily elicited! These things never can be forgotten.

Sounds like a huge responsibility no matter where you find yourself, but it also sounds healthy and full of promise.

how he loves us - kim walker / jesus culture

i crave this kind of corporate worship, and am sad that it seems like this cannot be found around here. i pray for a new passion for worship to rise up out of the ashes of our forgetfulness.

my mom put me on to kim walker. sadly, i'd never heard of her before. i've included links below of a couple more songs.



here's a link to another kim walker youtube video of the song, "where you go i go". click HQ for a higher quality version in both video and audio.

and if you haven't heard "you won't relent", you simply must.

self-evaluation

Healing
Last night our church had a congregational meeting. The purpose was to spend an evening of worship and intercession to discern who we are as a church. After a few worship songs, people began to volunteer praiseworthy and honourable attributes they felt we as a church could claim. To some of us there, and some of us not, it was akin to pouring salt on the wounds. My saving grace was the bravery of one admirable and humble woman (who happens to be my very dear and close friend!). She graciously offered a heartfelt admonition to be more forgiving and less judgmental.

I understand that people are inclined to have perceptions based on their own personal experiences. For those who have not been judged, they will see the church as a shelter. For those who have not experienced partiality, they will feel a sense of comfort. For those who's side has been chosen, they will feel empathy.

My challenge is to stay on task, fix my eyes on Jesus, and to listen to the Father. I need to dig into the Word that "penetrates even to dividing soul and spirit, joints and marrow; judges the thoughts and attitudes of the heart" (Heb. 4:12). I need to grow in wisdom, grace, and discernment. I need to be above reproach, walk in humility, to reach out, and to pray for the health of the community and it's people. I need to be brave and committed.

One thing David said was "authenticity with accountability". I like that. It was refreshing to hear those two words put together again after all these years. Those two attributes must be in sync.

Someone suggested that we as a community are unique. By definition, I would have to respectfully disagree. When we reflect Acts 2:42-47, I will be happy to agree that we are wonderfully unique:

They devoted themselves to the apostles' teaching and to the fellowship, to the breaking of bread and to prayer. Everyone was filled with awe, and many wonders and miraculous signs were done by the apostles. All the believers were together and had everything in common. Selling their possessions and goods, they gave to anyone as he had need. Every day they continued to meet together in the temple courts. They broke bread in their homes and ate together with glad and sincere hearts, praising God and enjoying the favor of all the people. And the Lord added to their number daily those who were being saved.

Here's my journal entry written 5 days prior to last night's meeting. These words still ring true for me:

It occurs to me that one might be tempted to think that everyone has been relatively happy with the state of affairs at church, despite escalating signs that all is not well. Thankfully the tide is turning and there is a conviction within the community to re-evaluate*.

I feel it's important to ensure that we cultivate an environment where people's cautions and concerns for the community are not brushed aside or disregarded. To settle for anything less than this is to be guilty of "groupthink", where maintaining the status quo is more important than the genuine needs of the community.

I personally hope that we can strive to come to a place where trust can be restored to the point where we can challenge each other in love and friendship, without fear of abandonment or rejection.

*time will tell just how willing we are to face the truth about ourselves as a community, and if we'll continue to pretend that Paul's words to Titus are not also applicable to us when he said, "At one time we too were foolish, disobedient, deceived and enslaved by all kinds of passions and pleasures. We lived in malice and envy, being hated and hating one another." (Titus 3:3)

He continues:

But when the kindness and love of God our Savior appeared, he saved us, not because of righteous things we had done, but because of his mercy. He saved us through the washing of rebirth and renewal by the Holy Spirit, whom he poured out on us generously through Jesus Christ our Savior, so that, having been justified by his grace, we might become heirs having the hope of eternal life. This is a trustworthy saying. And I want you to stress these things, so that those who have trusted in God may be careful to devote themselves to doing what is good. These things are excellent and profitable for everyone. ~ Titus 3:4-8

"The profound solutions to the ills of the community
are born at the feet of Jesus Christ"
~ Father Ignacio Larranaga

maturity

spring is there if you just look hard enough

I found a commendable article at a Hindu website that speaks of what maturity looks like. I can't help but think of the church, and how striving for these character traits would result in less dysfunction and heartbreak. Think of the emotional health that could result, both for the individual and the community as a whole.

You can read the entire article here: Maturity of Mind and Adult Behavior.

To be mature does not necessarily mean just a fully grown up individual. It is a combination of many things that includes age, awareness, intelligence, decision making ability and more. To be mature means:

1. to be realistic, to be in touch with reality and to be guided by facts,

2. to be responsible to self and others and to accept responsibility for self preservation,

3. to be willing to examine ones beliefs, fallacies, prejudices and assumptive behavior in an objective way and let them go,

4. to be guided by reason rather than emotions, to be able to distinguish the two and also at the same time accommodate them appropriately and intelligently in one's life and priorities,

5. to be assertive without being aggressive, to be friendly without the need to get attention, to disagree without the need to compete and to seek without the fear of failure or rejection,

6. to be flexible and open-minded rather than rigid and judgmental, to be amenable to new situations and receptive to new knowledge, to be willing to learn new skills and new responses,

7. to be inquisitive and exploratory, seeking answers to questions one does not know, gathering information before arriving at conclusions, stretching the mind to explore hidden possibilities and hidden potentialities,

8. to act spontaneously to an occasion or situation, free from preconceived notions, the compulsion to be perfect or correct, habitual or mechanical reactions

9. to be in touch with the present and enjoy the passing moment

10. to know what is possible and achievable and to acknowledge that which is not.

"pagan christianity" arrives as a present

A lovely girl named Lyn did a lovely thing for me. She ordered "Pagan Christianity" and had it shipped to me as a gift! We had been chatting about the book, and other stuff through e-mail and in one of them she ended with "Keep an eye on your mail box, I’ve sent you a gift from Amazon. Love L x." I was shocked! What a sweeeeetheart!

It arrived late yesterday and I've begun reading it this morning. I'm already finding it intriguing and I've yet to leave the preface. Here's a quote that sticks out to me:

"But if the the church is following the life of God who indwells it, it will never produce those nonscriptural practices this book addresses. Such practices are foreign elements that God's people picked up from their pagan neighbours as far back as the fourth century. They were embraced, baptized, and called "Christian". And that is why the church is in the state that it is in today, hampered by endless divisions, power struggles, passivity, and lack of transformation among God's people"

In this quote he cites the following essays of his in his footnote:

"The Kingdom, the Church, and Culture"

"What is an Organic Church?"

Over the last weeks I've had about 15 tabs up in Firefox all in regards to Biblical teachings about tithing. Here are just a few snippets for interest sake.

Is tithing Biblical? Sure, if you happen to be a non-Christian Jew who is still erroneously living under Old Testament law. But tithing is not Biblical for Christians.

In brief, tithing is never once taught in the New Testament, which is the blueprint for the Church and for Christian living. Some argue that Jesus upheld tithing in the New Testament. But what they fail to recognize is when Jesus told various men in the New Testament that they should not neglect the tithe is because those men were Jews, not Christians and Jesus had not yet died and rose from the dead redeeming us in general from ceremonial Jewish law.

It is absolutely IMPOSSIBLE to keep the Bible’s command to not give under compulsion while believing that we owe a compulsory tax of 10% of our income...

The same men who teach the tithe gladly eat pork (which is OK for any Christian to do). But anyone who keeps any Old Testament ceremonial law (such as tithing) must keep all the Old Testament ceremonial laws (including the law that states that eating pork is forbidden). We also do not see these tithe teachers slaughtering bulls and goats as sacrifices to God (not that any Christian should). The point is, these men pick and choose to pull forward from the Old Testament law whatever they want and they have chosen to keep the tithe and throw out what is inconvenient (such as the prohibition on owning personal property, the prohibition on eating pork, animal sacrifices, etc.) in a nutshell whatever they don’t like and whatever does not suit them.

Is Tithing Biblical?

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Who would have tithed in the Bible?
Apparently, only those who owned land in ancient Israel (the promised land itself) would have tithed an average of 23.3 percent of agricultural produce. There is no evidence that the tithe was ever applied to those who did not own land, or to those who did not live in Israel, with one exception: the Levites would give a tenth of the tithe to the priests, who also were commanded to tithe from what had been given to them (Numbers 18:26-28). This shows us that “even ‘full-time religious workers’ were subject to the laws of tithing” (Blomberg, Neither Poverty nor Riches, 46). However, Israelites who had become poor and lost their land or those who had moved to cities and engaged in non-agricultural trades almost certainly would have been exempt from tithe under Old Testament law. This casts considerable doubt on the applicability of a “10 percent” tithe for all Christians today. Instead of settling for a hard-and-fast legal requirement of 10 percent, we should instead pay careful attention to the New Testament’s radical teaching on generosity.

Generous Giving: Questions About Tithing

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Jews Do Not Tithe Today
...thirty–five years ago when I was just starting to study theology in college, a letter had been given to me for answering. It was from a woman who heard that modern Jews were not tithing. She wanted to know whether the information was true, and if so, why the Jews seemingly violated the plain laws of the Bible which spoke of tithing as a law to be obeyed?

Having read the letter, I began to share her concern. To resolve the matter I telephoned three rabbis in the Los Angeles area for their explanation. Much to my dismay, all three independently of each other informed me that no religious Jew should tithe today. I was startled at their replies. This appeared to be evidence that the Jews were so lax with their biblical interpretation that they were abandoning even the simple words of their own Scripture about the laws of tithing.

By the time I spoke with the last rabbi, my youthful indignation was beginning to emerge. But that rabbi then wisely began to show me my ignorance (not his) in the whole matter. First, he admitted that none of his congregation paid one penny of tithe that was demanded in the Old Testament. He then said: "If any member of my synagogue paid tithe in the scriptural manner, he would be disobeying the law of God—he would be sinning against God."

I was staggered by his answer. He went on to inform me that since the Bible demands that the tithe be paid to Levites, he said it would be wrong to pay it to anyone else. And further, because there is presently no official Levitical order of Priests ministering at a Temple in Jerusalem, this makes it illegal at this period to pay any biblical tithe. He went on to say, however, that the moment a Temple is rebuilt, with its altar in operation and with the priesthood officiating at that altar (and the Levites there to assist them), then every Jew who lives in the tithing zones mentioned in the Bible will be required to tithe according to the biblical commands.

This teaching was a revelation to me (as it may be to some of our readers), but the rabbi gave the proper biblical answers. To pay the biblical tithe at this time, without Levites and Priests in their regular ordained offices and doing service in the Temple, would be "sin" both to the giver and the receiver. The rabbi told me: "If we are to obey the law, we cannot pay tithe unless we pay it to the ones ordained by God to accept that tithe."

The rabbi explained that though he was the chief rabbi of his synagogue, he was not a Levite. He said he was descended from the tribe of Judah and was thereby not eligible to receive tithe. The same disqualification applied even to Christ Jesus while he was on earth since he was also reckoned as having come from the tribe of Judah. This same restriction was applicable to the activities of the apostle Peter (because he was as well from Judah) and it applied to the apostle Paul (because he was from the tribe of Benjamin). Neither Christ nor those apostles were Levites so they were all disqualified from receiving any part of the biblical tithe. It is just that simple. And listen, if Christ, Peter and Paul did not use the biblical tithe for any of their work in the teaching the Gospel, Christian ministers today should not use the biblical tithe either. The Jewish religious authorities are wise enough to read what the Word of God states about the tithe and, thankfully, they abide by it. But our Gentile preachers and priests care very little what the biblical texts actually state and go merrily on their way by devising their own laws of tithing which are different from those of the Bible.

Jews Do Not Tithe Today

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Financing a Church Organization
It is a foregone conclusion that any religious organization that provides a good service to the people who are members ought to have adequate funds with which to operate. And though it is wrong to use the laws of tithing in the Bible to support any organization, there should be means to do the job. And how much should one pay for such services? Really, it is not a matter of whether one gives ten percent, twenty percent or any percent to the work of teaching the Gospel. To Christ, it was all a matter of attitude. The voluntary giving of free will contributions was to Christ the proper way to support his work. It is one that Christ approves.

The Bible provides a logical and very workable voluntary system for financing any Christian work. It is similar to that which supported the Old Covenant "Israel" before the introduction of tithing in the second year of the Exodus. Its principle is found in Matthew 10, Mark 6, Luke 9 and 10 and 1 Corinthians 9. The whole matter—from beginning to end—is that of free will offerings—not tithe. Paul also referred to it in his first letter to Timothy:

"Let the elders that rule well be counted worthy of double honor, especially they who labor in the word and doctrine." ~ 1 Timothy 5:17

Next to the word "honor" in verse 17 of the King James Version is found a marginal reference that refers to Acts 28:10. This shows where the same Greek word is used. The Revised Standard Version renders the word "honor" as "gifts." Does not the word "gift" mean something other than a debt? Such "honors" are perfectly proper to give Christian workers when they carry on their work in the teaching of the Christian Gospel.

Financing a Church Organization

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Paul did not Receive Tithes
Paul’s missionary efforts should make it abundantly clear to everyone that the tithe, whether on agricultural products, livestock or 10 per cent of income, is not a New Testament teaching. Of all the New Testament writers, Paul of all people should have been able to use the Old Testament Scriptures to get people to tithe to him so that his expenses would be taken care of. But Paul did not quote a single tithing Scripture to make people give, not one. He most certainly could have, because the Temple and its sacrificial system was still going on during his life-time. But Paul knew only Levites could collect tithes. Paul could have made some Levites his treasurer and then gotten the tithes, but he did no such thing. When he quoted the Old Testament to justify receiving financial help from Christians, he quoted Deuteronomy 25:4, "You shall not muzzle an ox while it treads out the grain." (1 Cor. 9:9) He quotes it again in 1 Timothy 5:17,18, "Let the elders who rule well be counted worthy of double honor, especially those who labor in the word and doctrine. For the Scripture says, ‘You shall not muzzle an ox while it treads the grain,’ and ‘The laborer is worthy of his wages.’" (The words for double honor in the Greek include monetary remuneration.)

Why didn’t Paul just blast them with some real good strong tithe Scriptures and then throw the Malachi "you are robbing God" thing at them like many preachers do? Because Paul knew the Old Covenant much better than modern preachers do! He knew that there was a new temple, a new priesthood, and new covenant, and a new way of giving—out of the love of Christ in your heart! Just as our Father gave.

The Tithe is Illegal

reasons NOT to not tithe

This is really funny, if you don't take it too seriously. Apparently it's not clear whether this ministry is for or against tithing (my wager from watching other videos of theirs is that they are "for" tithing). Even so, it's still great because this is not what abolishing tithing is about as per the NT.

Some might be offended, and some might even consider it blasphemous, but I found myself laughing. To each his/her own!

new wine in old wine skins & tithing tactics

"The church needs to make a complete paradigm shift from the Old Covenant way of thinking and living to the New Covenant way. Mixing the two doesn't work. It's like putting new wine into old wine skins. The result is a dysfunctional system of religion, which most people consider to be normal Christianity, but is not what God intended. Tithing is one way that Christians mistakenly try to express their new nature in Christ through an obsolete system of worship and financial stewardship."

~ Matthew E. Narramore, "Tithing: Low-Realm, Obsolete & Defunct"

You can read the above book here for free, or purchase your own copy. You know what's ironic (or not)? A lot of these writers/teachers/pastors who teach on the topic of non-tithing GIVE their work away, be it book or a 4 1/2 hour video series. Does that not say a LOT?

I will now offer a contrast, not in tithing advocates selling their work, but detestable and dishonest tactics in generating income for the church. Thank the Lord my church is not like this.

You can buy "Generosity Tracts/Flyers/Pamphlets/PowerPoint presentations that address these concerns:

1) Do you need an effective, proven, affordable, and GUARANTEED ways to help your congregation become more generous?

2) Would you like to help your people be more generous without preaching any or many giving sermons?

Tithing Tracts

How about throwing one of these images out in a PowerPoint presentation:

Groan. First of all, it's a farce to suggest that this has anything to do with generosity. Second and worst of all they have twisted the original meaning of the verse. No surprise there. The book of Proverbs is traditionally attributed to Israel’s King Solomon. It's also the Old Testament/Covenant. What it is really referring to is tithing on "all thine increase" (Young's Literal Translation), or "the firstfruits of all your crops" (NIV), which is absolutely in line with the laws given to the ISRAELITES for that place and time.

Here are a few more translations of Proverbs 3:9:

Honor the LORD from your wealth And from the first of all your produce; (NASB) *notice it says "wealth" and "produce"

Honor God with everything you own; give him the first and the best. (The Message) *as much as I struggle with The Message's tendency to water down the Word, I like Peterson's version of this verse

Honor the Lord with your capital and sufficiency [from righteous labors] and with the firstfruits of all your income; (Amplified Bible) *at least this speaks of "capital" etc. and not tithing on your poverty, though I disagree with the use of the word "income" according to the definition of the Biblical tithe

Honor the Lord with your wealth and with the best part of everything you produce. (New Living Translation) *again "wealth", not giving what you don't have

Honour the LORD with thy substance, and with the firstfruits of all thine increase: (KJV)

And so on and so forth. I couldn't even find the version they used, if they used one at all. I can't decifer the cryptic symbol on the image.

I'll end as I began, with a quote from Narramore's book:

"A thorough study of all the New Testament exhortations that apply to financial giving reveals a different perspective than what is often preached today. Jesus himself is the highest example of the motivation and purpose of all giving. He gave because he loved and he gave to bless."

~ Matthew E. Narramore, "Tithing: Low-Realm, Obsolete & Defunct"

Anti-tithing interview

In my last post I mention a lot of what Russell Kelly wrote at his website. I had started a WordPad document feverishly copying and pasting info taken from multiple websites to later show my hubby. I ended up using a lot of Mr. Kelly's words in my post and I hope I've clearly noted that. I admit I got ahead of myself in my enthusiasm!

After posting yesterday I realized just how much research, study, and work Mr. Kelly has put into this whole subject. He's even written a book called, Should the Church Teach Tithing? A Theologian's Conclusions about a Taboo Doctrine. (By the way, I have NO affiliation with Amazon.com. Just sayin')

Last night Jon and I started watching this series of phone interviews at YouTube, at least until Jon started nodding off. My fault for wanting to watch this at 11pm!

We're going to pick it up later on this evening, but I'm going to post it here for interest's sake.

"Bernie Dehler interviews Russell Kelly and George W. Green. Why is the doctrine of "Christian Tithing" so wrong? What is the best argument from tithe teachers, and why is it wrong? Are those against "Christian Tithing" just simply being stingy?"

tithing: a biblical command or a man made tradition

I stumbled onto something totally by accident. I wasn't looking for it, I tripped over it, it being a post about tithing in a forum I was surfing. This post led me on a huge bunny trail that resulted in a discovery: tithing 10% of your income to your church isn't scriptural. I also found out something else. The tithing doctrine in North America is a relatively young one. It's been around for a little over 100 years (see here). Before that, churches/clergy were mostly supported by a little something called benevolence, voluntary giving, and generosity (well that and things like renting seats/pews). In the late 1800's, tithe advocates started pushing their agenda in an effort to gain a stable financial income. Apparently it seemed much more secure and lucrative to move the people into obligatory giving. (The opposite was found to be true by the 1920's (see here)).

I'm sure the history of tithing is a little less clear cut than all that, but I'm not really able to commit hours upon hours of research, nor do I really need to. I'm just sort sharing the smattering of information I've found while my hubby and I are pondering this whole issue, especially in regards of how the tithing practice has gotten us and many others into debt. Something is just not right.

Get this quote from a tithe pusher in 1878: "It is a debt to be paid before anything else can be called a gift, or freewill offering to Christ.” (C.P. Jennings) (quote taken from here). So apparently Jesus hasn't paid our debt?? Are we still under the old law?? How come we're also not sacrificing animals?

Since researching this subject, I have read many accounts of how people have gotten into debt through obligatory tithing. I'm not talking about little old ladies sending televangelists money. I'm talking regular families who tithe to their church.

I cringe at the things I used to say about tithing, things like, "I'd be afraid not to tithe". How on earth did I not see what I was saying, as if I was bound to some law, or giving so that I wasn't cursed? Would I want my child to give me a gift because they felt they were obliged to? This does not reflect the spirit of the New Testament at all.

2 Corinthians 8:7-15 (NIV)

But just as you excel in everything—in faith, in speech, in knowledge, in complete earnestness and in your love for us—see that you also excel in this grace of giving.

I am not commanding you, but I want to test the sincerity of your love by comparing it with the earnestness of others. For you know the grace of our Lord Jesus Christ, that though he was rich, yet for your sakes he became poor, so that you through his poverty might become rich.

And here is my advice about what is best for you in this matter: Last year you were the first not only to give but also to have the desire to do so. Now finish the work, so that your eager willingness to do it may be matched by your completion of it, according to your means. For if the willingness is there, the gift is acceptable according to what one has, not according to what he does not have.

Our desire is not that others might be relieved while you are hard pressed, but that there might be equality. At the present time your plenty will supply what they need, so that in turn their plenty will supply what you need. Then there will be equality, as it is written: "He who gathered much did not have too much, and he who gathered little did not have too little."

See the underlined part above? That to me speaks to the problem for us, where we are tithing money that WE DON'T HAVE. See also that he is not "commanding", but advising?

Google this for yourself (I found it here), but in 1895 tithing was first introduced to the Southern Baptist Convention. The convention urged state conventions to educate the people. The system was REJECTED by the people. Up until now I thought tithing was something that had always been around!!

Here's an interesting quote from Russell Earl Kelly, PHD who has spent a phenomenal amount of time and research into this subject:

(1923) "The Deeper Meaning of Stewardship", John Versteeg, Methodist, thought that the meaning of stewardship had been stretched beyond recognition and particularly so when it simply meant tithing. ... He sought to push stewardship away from an ironclad proclamation of the tithe and toward an understanding of stewardship as the Christian attitude toward material things.

Versteeg attacked their most cherished and basic claim that tithing was God’s law and had actually been consistently practiced during the biblical era. Versteeg’s view was the first stewardship book to be written from a historical-critical hermeneutic. “With singular unanimity biblical scholars agree” he wrote “as to the confusing touching the tithe,” and he cited the great biblical exegetes of his day to the effect that the data simply did not support any consistent account of the tithe in biblical times. Versteeg accused tithing advocates of twisting the evidence maintaining that “in the face of this men should assert for the tithe binding authority seems incredible! A fair perusal of Scripture fails to bear out their claim.

Here's another good quote from the same site:

1928: George Morelock, Methodist. If the person were to give from a sense of coercion, or out of the desire to popularity, or to pay for something, or to do his share, or grudgingly, then the giving, in Murdock’s view, could never be spiritual.

1873: Tithing First Suggested in USA

There were and still are many who are against the teaching of tithing. By the way, Martin Luther (1483–1546) was against tithes being binding on Christians. I just thought I'd throw that in there. Really, if he was for it, I'd disagree after reading the Bible for myself.

I will clarify that as my husband and I are moving away from the tithe practice/bondage put upon us by church tradition, we are determined to instead learn what it means to give generously. I remember one spring I had $50 saved to get highlights done. Instead I gave it away to someone who needed it more. I can't remember how, but I ended up with another quick $50 saved. I gave it away again (I must have been soft-hearted that spring!). I got $50 back again!! I couldn't seem to get rid of it. You see I gave it with a cheerful heart. I was more blessed in the giving than keeping it for myself. What if this is how giving should look. Not giving under compulsion or obligation or through regulation, but giving as your heart leads, NOT as a result of some calculations done on your pay stub.

I've read accounts of people choosing to abolish tithing in their lives and now vow to never go back because their church would suffer for it. You see in their choosing to give from the heart, they found they had more to give and therefore gave more. So they figure that if they went back to tithing, they'd be giving less.

What giving looks like, whether cash, or tangible goods, I'm not sure. It's something we are going to pray about as we try to dig ourselves out of debt and hopefully stop using the credit card to put food on the table.

1 Timothy 5:8 (NASB)

But if anyone does not provide for his own, and especially for those of his household, he has denied the faith and is worse than an unbeliever.

For the record, I don't buy the "tithing my time and talents", I think that should be a given. I also believe in supporting the local church first. They are my church community, my family.

Anyway, this is a sloppy post, not very organized, but I don't have time to do better. I've got kitchen cupboards to paint to save us money the DIY way!

I'll be posting quotes from the numerous websites I found that actually go into the teaching of why tithing is not applicable under the New Covenant.

I'll leave you with this YouTube video. The speaker touches on a few things that make more sense if you've studied the topic somewhat, but it's a start. I love what he says at the very end:

"Give as the Lord provides, and as he allows you to do, and do it joyfully and be as generous as you can."

l